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Wednesday, May 27, 2009
Are black gay men more interested in the short-term gratification of casual sex, online hookups and circuit parties (like Miami Sizzle) than to concern themselves with seeking and building long-term relationships or fighting for marriage equality?
Don't hold back. Discuss.
23 Comments:
Let Me Start...
I think that it looks like that may be the truth... But more and more of our beautiful POC relationships have been popping up more and more. After spending some time in Atlanta and see a few positive forms of loving relationships, then to come home to NYC and participate in the Rally when Prop 8 was upheld. I'm beginning to see more and more African Americans show pride in relationships. Long-term relationships.
I got approached a few times about my relationship with Eric, most times people admitting that seeing more Black Males and Females Gays and Lesbians in long and strong relationships are beginning to have an effect on how people few themselves.
How you view a relationship is what you see. We can say over and over there are no visible images of long-term relationships coming from the People Of Color, but the more we begin to step forward, those excuses become lacking in reason and so forth people start to reevaluate their way of thinking.
Is it possible, of course, but we now have seen that we are more commonly approaching relationships more honestly because of the visibility that some of our leaders have shown more.
This will not happen overnight, but since being in the community, I begin to see the complaining turn more into action. Want someone to value you, then value yourself and relationships will follow.
Would love to have a more detailed conversation on Da Doo-Dirty Show coming Monday. Ep 564... Honesty is the way to reach happiness.
DJ Baker
Da Doo-Dirty Show
May 27, 2009 3:49 PM
Unfortunately, we live in a microwave world where men want it quick fast and in a hurry. We have been conditioned, especially as black gay men, to jump in and jump out with no attachment.
The black gay community lacks visible leadership that enforces unity and community. Where would we be without night clubs and partying? In our homes cruising for sex and connection online most likely.
There are also no visible signs that relationships last because so many of our platonic and romantic relationships are short-lived and those men who ARE in relationships have gone into hiding and have flipped over the DO NOT DISTURB sign on their front doors.
We have yet to learn as a community how to come together for a cause greater than a party. As I have stated before, THE BLACK GAY COMMUNITY IS OUT OF CONTROL!!!
I won't even dig deep into the conversation of HIV/AIDS, it's hardly going anywhere any time soon, I honestly believe that it was designed especially for US. Our ignorance will continue to kill us.
May 27, 2009 3:59 PM
Darian,
This is an interesting question. I am only 21 and watching films like 'Tongues Untied' or 'Black Is, Black Ain't,' I'm left wondering where is the sense of unity with black gay men--it is definitely suffering right now. I guess something like the HIV epidemic was a mobilizing force in the 80s/early 90s. It is amazing how an issue like that can be a central organizing point for unity beyond just the epidemic itself. And now that people can live with HIV and it is not being pushed like the major issue it really is. That uniting force seems like it has diminished.
One would think marriage equality would be another issue to galvanize, but for some reason it hasn't been. What is unique in the black gay community it seems is this prioritization of issues... first comes race and issues within a racial community, even the family--THEN comes sexuality if even an issue. I dated a guy who told me 'I mess around with guys sometimes and I mess around with girls. I don't like labels and if I could say anything I would say I'm bi.' His spiritual life and life in the black community seems to come before that even though all these struggles are related. I know he would never be someone to fight for marriage equality. Same goes for other closeted brothers out there. This systematic exclusion of the black LGBT person from the conversation in black America is damaging. We need to deal with those issues first, then maybe there will be some progress. Until then, some will continue to compartmentalize their sexual activity and overlook that it is much more than sex.
I'd also like to pose this question to you or anyone else who might want to answer: do black lesbians face the same issues? I've so noticed so many more black lesbians out there fighting for us--but perhaps it is simply a numbers game (i.e. there are physically more women then men).
May 27, 2009 4:07 PM
(1) So many want a black gay leader. What type of education do you want them to have? Will you support them when they make the case that their sexuality is not 1st in their life.
(2) What organizations have your members. People want leaders w/o following. Potential leaders are saying, "Is it worth it." Why shoudl someone lose their livelihood for people who will not stay with them and support them.
(3)Do we life up the CURRENT black gay organization. I wish people would utilize the organization we currently have and stop asking for other leaders to burden themselves.
May 27, 2009 4:48 PM
There's a difference between wanting a long term relationship and fighting for equal marriage rights. But it isn't that gay black men don't WANT long term relationships because we do. It's more so not believing they're possible. We tend to rush right into these "serious" relationships after a few months of meeting. All day text conversations and professing to our friends that it's love. We usualy tend to fall for the wrong kind of guy, the liar, the cheater, etc and end up gaining the "trust no nigga" mentality. Or then there are the instances where courtship is going fine and then the moment things get rocky and the real relationship starts, that's when people break up because there wasn't a solid foundation to begin with. Quickly hopping back on the internet and sifting through the catalogue of hopefuls and find someone else, rather than trying to make it work through communication and compromise. Soon we become jaded because nothing ever seems to work out from repeating the same mistakes. Eventually walls get put up and emotions get suppressed to keep from being heart broken again (because who wants that?).
So then gay black men end up settling for sex. Its a momentary vacation from feeling lonely. And since the feeling doesn't go away, casual sex is constantly sought after. Online hook ups and circuit parties are easier ways of finding someone to fill a void... even if its just for a little while. If you ask most gay black men about their relationships pasts you'll see a similar trend. It's like we never really bounce back from it. At least not completely.
It's important to establish foundations with people we're interested in because it makes it more difficult to simply just let them go. But when it comes to fighting for gay marriage rights, many gay black men don't believe in gay marriage at all. Some feel like they're never going to get married because gay relationships don't work out when really its because they can barely hold on to a relationship. Not to mention the ones who don't believe in gay marriage at all. Many are stuck in the heterosexist church mentality that marriage is only possible for a man and a woman because that's what they've always been taught.
Its less of being more interested in short term gratification and more about being less prepared for establishing long term commitments. I mean... we don't really talk to each other let alone come up and introduce ourselves on the street.
May 27, 2009 4:58 PM
You have got to be kidding me with this question Darian!!! Let’s be real, I do not think you needed to pose this question because the answer is blatantly obvious in the day to day lives and activities of black gay men. First and foremost, the culture itself, the African American culture, puts a huge burden on black men to be their true hidden selves; by hidden I am referring to black men who have an interest in the same sex, which would then make them black gay men. By not being allowed to be themselves, it shapes the actions and behaviors of black gay men. As those black gay men get more comfortable with themselves and their sexuality, they are already preconditioned to “sneak” around, or conduct hidden and taboo type meetings with the same sex. Not to mention there are not any representation on a large enough level to show black gay men that relationships, long term or even short term, can and do exist. So the structure and balance that would shape any normal relationship as led by examples in a heterosexual relationship that we all get either from our parents, aunties, uncles, grandparents, or even T.V., are not there to show and force black gay men to expect more, to expect a long term relationship. The same expectations that any person, heterosexual or homosexual seeks, such as graduating from high school, succeeding in a career, setting personal goals, having dreams etc. So, the problem starts from the root, the base, as the tower or situation get’s bigger, its foundation was built unsteady, so it will always lean and have faults, just as black gay men get deeper into their self discovery of being gay, each guy they meet and interact with is just another floor built on which will eventually crumble because the foundation of either one of the two black gay men was already unsteady…deuces
May 27, 2009 5:01 PM
Another 21 year-old, FTW :P
To give you the short answer, Darian, I would say "yes, we are more obsessed with sex than finding an LTR." But, as with many negative cultural characteristics, we came about it honestly.
The reason Black gays aren't spearheading the fight for marriage equality is the same reason we don't see gay latinos, or gay asians leading the protest: Maslow's hierarchy of needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs). We're all so busy juggling multiple identities and working to overcome systematic disadvantages that we just don't have the energy to devote to it. Now there are some people who feel as Jasmyne Cannick does that gay issues must play second fiddle until all racial issues have been resolved. But it's not my impression that the majority of black gays feel this way.
Just as marriage equality would be at the top of the pyramid under "self-actualization" up there you will also find the LTR. Most of us are somewhere between "safety" and "esteem." But the LTR is something you pursue once you feel you've got your life in control. You don't have to have all your shit together, but you need to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel before you can even think about sharing that life with someone else. And this, I think, is the crux of the issue.
Coming to terms with one's homosexuality is a HUGE destabilizer. In addition to coming to terms with it yourself, you have to hope that your family wont disown you, your boss wont fire you, your friends wont desert you, etc. And it is this destabilization which cripples people into a mentality of "sex, sex sex" that causes people to not bother with an LTR once they finally do have their life in some kind of decent order. Sex can be gotten easy. Sex can be gotten cheap. You can be a drug addicted, homeless man living in Piedmont Park and still get laid. Depending on the John, you might even get paid for it. An LTR is hard. You have to be comfortable with yourself before you can grow with another.
Many people, when faced with the remains of their ruined lives, turn to sex for an escape and are more risky in their behaviors. And yes, the exact same thing can be said of our white, gay counterparts. And there's no denying they face the same issues, just on a lesser scale. I believe that they have the privileges inherent in their whiteness and maleness to help insulate them somewhat from the effects of being gay. Also white gays, while they have plenty of drama when they come out, generally do not face the amount of consequences we black gays face when we come out. However, culture does play an important role in how well-adjusted we can be after coming out. In my experience there's an alarmingly high rate of psychological problems in the black gay community the likes of which simply isn't seen among our white counterparts. I think the responsibility for that lies squarely on the shoulders of our respective communities.
Personally, I think black gays will start getting into more LTR's when one of two things happen: (1) the larger Black community starts to deal with having gay children in a humane way, rather than throwing them out and cutting them off, or (2) black gays decide as a group to make the sacrifices to become more upwardly mobile so they can gain the economic independence that leads to that elusive "self-actualization." The white community was fortunate that both more or less happened at the same time for them. I don't believe us blacks will be as lucky. I hope for the first option, but would put my money on the second.
May 27, 2009 5:41 PM
I think you ask several questions here. First, sadly, the more guys I meet the more I see they are only interested is short term sexual connections. The guys I meet really tend to want sex only. When I try to make other types of connections or set some boundaries, they bounce. That is why for the most part I have given up on finding a long term mate. There are a number of reasons for this, but they are too many to list here.
In order to have a long term, committed relationship a person has to be vulnerable with someone and then think about someone other than themselves. I don't see anyone willing to that, at least in the ones I have met. Some are just not ready for a relationship, some are not capable of being vulnerable, and some are just plain scared. I have learned to just respect the space that these guys are in, and just be sure to protect myself.
As for marriage equality, I do believe two consenting adults should be able to marry regardless of sexual orientation. But in the Black community - especially among males - this battle is not at top of the list. Racism, social and economic inequality still trumps the issue of gay marriage even in our same gender loving community. And given the fleeting state of our relationships, we have a long way to go before gay marriage will be a viable option in our community. Most committed long term couples I see our communities are between black lesbians. They are more ready for gay marriage than the men are for sure. They seem to "get it", while we still struggle with just showing up for a date ... or returning a phone call ... or telling the truth (sorry, my stuff got in the way!).
May 27, 2009 5:46 PM
Black Gay life is all about:
Cruising adam4adam.com asking guys what their waist sizes are/are you 18-25years old/are you light-skinned,etc.
Cruising bgc.com
Attending the very expensive circuit party Sizzle Miami and how many sex hook-ups they can get at the host hotel.
Atlanta's Black Gay Pride/Labor Day Weekend and how many sex hook-ups they can get at the host hotel. Also,checking out that bathouse down the street from Club 708.
Watching gay porn videos with very skinny thug looking guys having sex.
Paying insane entrance fees & drinks prices to get into Langston's Nightclub/NYC. A club located in an area infested with crack heads and homeless shelters.
Rockin' that thang up and halls of Lenox Mall in Atlanta.
May 27, 2009 7:35 PM
t is unfortunate that many men go thru this phase of their lives where cultivating "long-term" relationships is not as important as getting that instant nutt or building themselves up to being nothing more than eye-candy. As they get older, a good majority of them live to regret these early choices.
I would hate to tell someone what should matter more in their lives. Or what should or should not be bringing them happiness. It all comes down to personal choices. And society learning to respect that without making judgments on them.
In my most recent blog "YOU-niquely", I mentioned that society tends to push people into believing that being in a relationship is the epitome of being happy when in fact not everyone is meant to be in a relationship. Especially with men, whom are not monogamous by nature. Understanding of course that monogamy is a LEARNED behavior and not a natural way of being.
May 27, 2009 9:22 PM
Men PERIOD are interested in the short-term gratification of casual sex ~ regardless of sexual orientation! I think it is MORE prevalent among gay men regardless of RACE. I think there is such a lack of high self esteem, lack of community and lack of cohesiveness among BLACK gay men that HELPS to foster an extreme SELFISHNESS and IMMATURITY in us ~ and that includes SEXUAL IMMATURITY AND SELF CENTERDNESS! Some of us are eternal adolescents who never grow up! But that's black men PERIOD! It's FOREVER FUN to be a child!
May 27, 2009 9:23 PM
It's a lot harder now in 2009 to find men ready to settle down or who are even interested in that. With the internet, and the quick ease of hooking up, that's what most men are into. I came up with a saying about the whole thing: "Hit it, quit it, and if it was good to ya, come back and get it."
But for those men out there who are relationship-oriented like myself, patience is a virtue. Stick to what you want, don't make rash decisions, don't settle for less than what you want, and hopefully, eventually- you'll find someone that shares the same passion as you and is ready to settle down.
You go through a lot of "frogs" to find the prince. Believe me, I know. Finding a man is easy for me, personally. Keeping one though is an altogether different story. My most recent long-term relationship lasted 8 years, so it can happen. Relationships though don't just 'happen'. They take work, lots of work.
May 27, 2009 9:27 PM
I sometimes wish there was some kind of standardized identification system, like color codes or lapel pins or bandanas in designated rear pockets, that would enable us to tell the relationship-minded guys from the ones who just want sex. There's nothing wrong with wanting sex as opposed to a relationship and one is not inherently better than the other. But when you are looking for love and commitment, you can waste an awful lot of time just meeting guys who want sex. I'm sure it's no easier for them either, trying to get in the pants of someone who doesn't want them in there.
I think there are men who want relationships, we just aren't supported by society as a whole nor our own gay community, which puts too much emphasis on sex above all else. There is no one to teach two men how to meet, date and build a relationship in a healthy way, so we are left to figure it out for ourselves, while bombarded with messages that pressure us to just hit it and keep things moving.
May 27, 2009 9:29 PM
i hope it changes because life these days is too short to be trying to just have sex with no meaning behind it.thats whats wrong with the world 2day.its like no one has respect for their bodies anymore.i pray we change that stereotype sooner than later because if not we as black gay men will never prosper the way god wants us 2
May 27, 2009 9:34 PM
I agree with Ben Ben ten thousand percent.
And I might be looked at as crazy for this, but so many financially/mentally stable Black gay men are running to white gay men as to not deal with the shortcomings of their own. At least in my experience. It isn't shocking, but it is quite discouraging. No shade to white gays because I am definitely not one to hate, but I want to see more Black relationships that are equally yoked and successful.
May 27, 2009 11:49 PM
Don't want to deal with the shortcomings of our own or self-hate?
My straight female cousin has dealt with drug dealers,unemployed men and baby making machines in her life. She never once said that she was going to white men.
----------------------------------
I agree with Ben Ben ten thousand percent.
And I might be looked at as crazy for this, but so many financially/mentally stable Black gay men are running to white gay men as to not deal with the shortcomings of their own. At least in my experience. It isn't shocking, but it is quite discouraging. No shade to white gays because I am definitely not one to hate, but I want to see more Black relationships that are equally yoked and successful.
May 27, 2009 11:49 PM
May 28, 2009 9:09 AM
"And I might be looked at as crazy for this, but so many financially/mentally stable Black gay men are running to white gay men as to not deal with the shortcomings of their own."
I am a 50+ year old black gay man. In the late 1980s, I was a founding member of a Black Men White Men Together(BWMT) chapter in a medium sized southwestern city in Ohio. We, however, called our chapter Men of All Colors Togethers (MACT) as we had several members who were neither black nor white.
As a result of my affliation with BWMT/MACT in the 1980s, I've seen a lot of interracial gay male relationships up close over the years. Although I have no ties to BWMT/MACT now, I've maintained contact with some of the interracial couples I met during and after that period.
The following is a sampling of the interracial gay male couples I know or have known:
1) an interracial couple who cruises the parks/public restrooms TOGETHER looking for men to have sex with.
2) another interracial couple who cruises the same parks/public restrooms SEPARATELY looking for men to have sex with.
3) a middle-aged white gay man who was having a three way affair with TWO black gay men half his age. The white guy was eventually dumped by one of the black guys for someone with more status. The black guy who's still with him will probably leave when he finishes his course work to be a registered nurse.
4) an interracial couple who has been together since 1986, however, the black guy can't finish college OR keep a job. Even though the black guy is very smart he has none of the skills needed to make a decent income. The black guy has reported being physically abused by his white partner but he has never done anything about it other than complain to me. If it wasn't for the white guy, the black guy would be a homeless person.
5) an interracial couple where the black guy is very talented in an artsy kind of way but has no useful skills for bringing in income. Again if it wasn't for the white guy, the black guy would be homeless. The white guy is older than the black guy and is HIV-positive so it is a real possibility that the black guy will be homeless at some point.
6) an interracial couple where the white guy left the black guy for a black crack head. The black guy went after his ex-lover, got into a fight with him and almost went to jail. The white guy apparently decided to drop the charges and the black guy got out of the legal mess he was in. The couple did NOT get back together.
I could give you more scenarios but you get the picture. Everything is not what it appears to be. Interracial gay male couples are not as financially/mentally stable as you seem to think. Most of the interracial couples I've seen, for example, involve the white guy being the major or, in some cases, only breadwinner.
Despite the aforementioned descriptions of dysfunctional interracial relationships, I still think a black gay man probably has a better chance of forming a long term relationship with a white guy than with a black guy. It seems that for a good number of the interracial couples I've known, divorce/separation is simply NOT an option. They are in it for the duration regardless of the dysfunctional aspects of their relationships.
Note: I'm not trying to suggest that all interracial couples are like the ones I described above. I was simply describing a few interracial couples I have known over the years.
May 28, 2009 11:01 AM
I don't agree. Alot of us want long time relationships but its quite a challenge. Circuit parties were hugely started in non-African American communities. As usual we catch on last and follow trends whether good or bad. No excuses. From my personal experience, I ain't willing to settle for subpar whether he is blk, white, green, or yellow. I think a huge disconnect for me is to find a brother that knows how to communicate exactly what he wants and needs. I don't do gray areas very well.
As men we have master the skill of detachment and shutting down. It's easy to get a piece and remove yourself emotionally and not engage the person once you have gotten what you want. Communication takes two strong people being able to listening to what is being side and hear what is not being side.
Lastly, I honest think its very important that we all do some internal work before we look outwardly at inviting someone in our lives. Settling is alot of work and I'm not willing too.
I don't need a relationship to confirm or affirm who I am. However, I would like to spend the rest of my life with the person that is right for me. I have so many friends that have settled and they are miserable. I don't want to wake up 10 years from now and realize that my mate and I don't have anything in common. It was there from day one....but the codependence people hang onto keep them in bondage. I say take off the rose colored glasses and see it for what it really is
May 28, 2009 1:28 PM
Well Darian, it seems like this conversation regarding African-American Gay Men and relationships continues to be one that always illicits a lot of dialogue. As an African-American Gay Black Man I certainly have a lot to say about this specific topic...mostly because it both excites me and disappoints all at the same time.
I grew up in Oakland, California (east) and I had no role models with respect my sexuality. I really believed that when I got older and found the other gay folks like myself, I would be welcomed with open arms, loved, cared for and understood. Unfortunetly that was not the case. Like some gay men, I was introduced to the sex thing first, actually by mistake. I had been hanging out a Lake Merritt near downtown Oakland and was approched by a man. We went to his house and I had my first sexual experience. I was nervous, but despite that, enjoyed it. The only thing was that as soon as we were finnished, he asked me to leave. I was crushed!!! Well, I learned a lesson and the next time, used some discretion. To make a long story shorter, I met many men always thinking that he might be the one, but not even. I then kinda gave up the idea of a loving healthy relationship and for a long time did what the romans did. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll...or should I say hip-hop/R&B.
I am now 42, and I think Im a great guy with ambition and a good spirit. But what I find is that most guys seem to pretend to want a relationship, but are either really looking for sex or they make assumptions about me and are turned of when they see the human side of me. I think a lot of gay men live in a kind of altered state. Some of us seem to fashion our lives after movies of the week or our favorite porno flick. I am a reguler guy with reguler issues, but compared to some, I am greatful for the few that I have. I no longer sleep around, I no longer compromise my own judgement and or spirit, and I've learned to be hopeful, but not controled by the idea of find that special someone.
I met a guy two weeks ago, he envited me to a party for our first date and he hung on me the entire night as if we had been lovers for years. But, after talking with him, I realized there was no depth, just the same old sudoeducatedgreatweshallovercomespeechgiving sheep in wolves clothing. All I ask is that you be honest about your desire and not pretend with the hopes of getting some sex. What is it about sex anyway that seem to drive some of us to the point of insanity. I think maybe it has a lot to do with the fact that we were not taught how to date. Meaning, most of us rarely had examples. The gay community mostly seems about objectification and volume, but certainly not quality and the spirit.
I am diggin your blog sight and I am not a faithful fan. I appreciate your efforts my brutha!!!
Love and Respect,
John-Derek
huggybrobear@aol.com
PS Please excuse any bloopers or grammatical errors, did not proof!
May 28, 2009 11:39 PM
I am not sure that black gay men are more superficial than any other group of gays. Our behavior appears exaggerated because our numbers are smaller.
Many gay men tend to have an adolescent view on life where parties, sex, and being fabulous are the only things that matter. I have seen this attitude persist until the 40s and 50s in some guys I know.
That said, I do believe black gay men need some kind of healing or teaching about relationships and building community. I can find any number of men who invite me to hit them up on A4A or BGC, but they don't want to do things like see a movie, go to dinner, or visit a cultural event. They will claim to not have the time or money to get involved with local issues, but manage to go to several black pride parties across the country.
It has been made clear that as black gays, we are on our own since many of us have issues with the "mainstream" black and gay worlds. -- Anthony in Nashville
May 29, 2009 9:45 AM
Online hookups and black club aka 'gay pride' events seem to be something that Black men can do in secrecy. Yes, Black men would casually hook up before taking a stand. I find that many openly gay Black men actually feel that their lifestyle is wrong. They countinue to feel convicted and as though they are participating in sinful acts-so they'd rather keep what they do on the low. In many of their eyes, openly fighting for gay marriage would mean that you are an activist and it is uncool and unpopular to be known as 'the activist'. This is very unfortunate. To fight for gay marriage would mean that you are outing yourself. It is unfortunate that we come from a legacy of people known for fighting for their human rights, yet we will not take a stand. As for relationships, I think it just depends on where you are. Atlanta for example, guys say that they want a relationship, but sexual opportunities exist on every corner. Many didn't grow up with a strong male figure in their househol, so, they attempt to play the part with no formal training. So many are emotionally damaged and it just doesn't seem to get any better.
May 30, 2009 9:25 AM
I think there are a lot of Black gay men that interested in just having sex, just like there are White men, Asian men and so on...the thing is that this is just one aspect of the gay community that won't change because this about individuals and what they want and need for there lives and it is up to the persons that gets it to show them that there is more to being gay than having sex...
May 30, 2009 11:41 PM
The question:
"Are black gay men more interested in the short-term gratification of casual sex, online hookups and circuit parties (like Miami Sizzle) than to concern themselves with seeking and building long-term relationships or fighting for marriage equality?"
The answer:
Ya damn skippy ... and that's why I've pretty much stopped dating them. Too hot in the ass, too much drama, too little self love. I'm over it. Not sure what the solution is, but most gay black men are simply not relationship material. And the sad part is, it's killing our community. But most people are too short-sighted to see it. Sad. Not to mention how this homothug crap has completely taken over the minds of black men. If your clothes fit, all of a sudden you either wanna be white or a fem queen. It's all too much, and I'm too old for it. Most of them lie about everything, and spend more time sneaking around and trying to get over than cultivating meaningful relationships. It is sad to me that all of the black men I know, save for one or two, who are in committed, stable unions are with nonblack men. It's unfortunate. I'd love to be with a brother but I don't see it happening, and I refuse to limit myself to the drama and the BS. There are too many options out there.
June 01, 2009 2:46 PM
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